Tackling Poverty with Misha Werschkul of the Washington State Budget & Policy Center

Washington State Budget & Policy Center

2023 State of the State Address: Bold actions for building a stronger Washington | Washington Governor Jay Inslee

“Washington Should Tax the Rich to Save Our Public Schools” by Robert Cruickshank for The Stranger

“The U.S. Could Help Solve Its Poverty Problem with a Universal Basic Income” by Michael W. Howard for Scientific American

“How Tacoma’s yearlong guaranteed income experiment fared” by Alexandra Yoon-Hendricks from The Seattle Times

HB 1045 - Creating the evergreen basic income pilot program

“To address wealth gap, WA to consider $4,000 ‘baby bonds’” by Alexandra Yoon-Hendricks from The Seattle Times

“Budget funds key first step in State Treasurer’s wealth gap initiative” by Adam Johnson for Office of the State Treasurer

SB 5125 | HB 1094 - Creating the Washington future fund program

“A tragic Seattle story explains the decline of American welfare” by Shaun Scott for Crosscut

“Getting rid of legal financial obligations can protect the economic security of thousands of Washingtonians” by Evan Walker for Washington State Budget & Policy Center

“It's Time to Reform Washington's Harmful System of Fines and Fees” by Evan Walker & Andy Nicholas for Washington State Budget & Policy Center

“Beyond Policing: Investing in Offices of Neighborhood Safety" by Betsy Pearl for The Center for American Progress

“The Working Families Tax Credit will reduce hardship across Washington” by Margaret Babayan for Washington State Budget & Policy Center

Working Families Tax Credit Coalition

“In Washington State, the Left Won a Major Victory for Taxing the Rich” by Galen Herz for Jacobin

“Share the Wealth, Washington!” by Carolyn Brotherton for Economic Opportunity Institute

WA Possible - podcast about what is possible for economic justice in Washington state by Washington State Budget & Policy Center

[00:00:00] Crystal Fincher: Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes.

Today I am excited to be welcoming Misha Werschkul, who's the Executive Director of the Washington State Budget and Policy Center - welcome. 

[00:01:01] Misha Werschkul: So glad to be with you, Crystal. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:04] Crystal Fincher: Thanks for joining us. I just want to start off by talking about - a lot of people are familiar with the Washington Budget and Policy Center, but for those who aren't, what is it? What do you do? And what brought you to this work? 

[00:01:14] Misha Werschkul: Thanks so much for starting with that. The first thing that I just want to share is - at the Washington State Budget and Policy Center - we're a nonprofit advocacy organization, so we're not part of State government. We actually work doing research and analysis, work in coalition with other organizations. And really, our goal is to make sure that the laws and the budget of Washington State are in alignment with the values of our state and really setting up a bright future for all Washingtonians. So we primarily work on state policy, although we do a little bit of work on local issues from time to time and federal issues. And all of our work is, as I mentioned, in coalition partnership - so we work with other organizations that do grassroots organizing and power building, communications, more political work - and really work together to try to make sure that when the Legislature comes together, as they are right now, that they're doing the things that match the values in our community. So it's really actually super fun work that allows us to bring those skills of research and analysis in what we hope to be service for social justice. 

A little bit about me is just - I came to this work really through a path of advocacy work. So prior to being with the Budget and Policy Center, I worked with a labor union in our state that represents home care and nursing home workers, and had a chance to be a frontline lobbyist down in Olympia trying to advance the interests of the long-term care workforce. And I saw through that work the incredible impact of the Budget and Policy Center, the power of the team here, and the importance of working on structural issues like the state budget, tax policy, economic justice - and now get the chance to work still in collaboration and partnership with organizations like the labor union that I worked with. 

[00:03:12] Crystal Fincher: You talk about the structural impact that can be made - and so much of that is impacted at the state level. What are you looking to have accomplished in this legislative session that just started? 

[00:03:24] Misha Werschkul: We always talk about the most important piece of legislation that the Legislature tackles each year is the state budget. And that is hundreds of pages of decisions - embedded in the state budget - around what are we going to spend money on, and how are we going to collect the revenue that pays for those things. And so our state has been really in a good situation with being able to receive federal dollars through all of the COVID relief that has happened over the past few years. And we've been able to do a lot - our legislators have - to be able to invest in our communities and help, really, us weather a really horrific pandemic. And this year, the Legislature is going to be putting together the budget for the next two years, so the end of 2023 through 2025. And I would say, always, that the most important thing that they can do is put together a budget that really meets the needs of communities, reflects community input, and ideally collects the revenue to pay for those investments in an equitable way. So there's millions of things within the state budget that matter to folks all across our state, and that's something that we'll be watching super carefully this legislative session - and frankly, every legislative session. 

[00:04:44] Crystal Fincher: What are the most important things you believe are going to be the components of the budget that will make a positive impact for the state? 

[00:04:52] Misha Werschkul: Some of the things that are getting a lot of attention and are going to be really important are really what is the level of investment in housing and homelessness. That's something that - I live in Seattle - that is something we're talking about a lot in Seattle, but is also really an issue all across the state - folks in rural communities, other urban areas, suburban areas - dealing with the homelessness crisis and the lack of access to affordable housing. And so this year, the governor has proposed a really big investment in housing and homelessness services - much bigger than has been talked about in previous years - and really, I think, embraced the need for a statewide solution that really matches the scale of what the crisis is that folks are experiencing. And so we're going to be watching that really carefully to see what can be done in that area. The governor is also talking about behavioral health as an important area for investment, climate change. One area we'll be paying attention to at the Budget and Policy Center is education - that is actually the biggest part of the state budget - is funding for public schools. And we know that schools all across our communities - kids need to be invested in, right? And that that is something that is going to be important this year - special education, how are we supporting teachers, what are we really doing to make sure that kids' mental health are taken care of. There's a lot more to do in that area and a lot of conversation to be had in the next 100-ish days of the legislative session. 

[00:06:29] Crystal Fincher: Certainly a lot of conversation to be had. And while we have heard a lot of talk, fortunately, about taking action on housing and homelessness, we haven't heard as much about education after, surprisingly, seeing so many teachers and educators bringing to the fore the crisis, basically, that we're facing in terms of funding, special education resources, and the ability to really give kids the education that will equip them for their future and that we're constitutionally obligated to give them. What are the prospects for action and what do you think is possible this legislative session? 

[00:07:06] Misha Werschkul: I think the Legislature is going to step up and do something for our kids. So there hasn't been as much talk about it - there are a number of different challenges that the Legislature is grappling with, a number of different things the Legislature is dealing with. But ultimately, education is the most important thing when it comes to the state budget and the paramount duty of Washington State. And so last year there was investment in counselors and other types of support professionals in the schools - that's going to be rolling out and making a difference for kids this year, but more has to be done. And I think that that is an area where we're hearing folks - really from both political parties - talk about the need to invest in education. And so I'm actually pretty hopeful about what's going to be done in that area for kids all across the state because the need is really present. And as you mentioned, the calls that teachers made at the start of the school year, folks' experience of the first few months of the school year, kids back to school in January - the needs there are very visible. And I think legislators will listen to that. 

[00:08:23] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. You have also, and the Budget and Policy Center has done a lot of work and highlighted a lot of research about the importance of cash assistance policies in addressing poverty and strengthening communities. Starting with Guaranteed Basic Income, that we've heard a lot from Representative Liz Berry on - what is that? What kind of record does it have? And why is it important? 

[00:08:48] Misha Werschkul: I love that you're asking about this because I think this is actually one of the most important things the Legislature can and should act on this year. So the idea of Guaranteed Basic Income is really a concept that's really been brought forward by - historically by Black leaders, Black women, also by tribal governments - as a way to really recognize the inherent dignity of people and the fact that people can make the best choices with resources that can meet the needs of themselves individually, their families, and their communities. And it's really a rejection of the paternalistic approach of a lot of policy approaches where - too often - you have government agencies really making decisions on behalf of people and taking away that ability for people to make their own decisions. And so this concept of Guaranteed Basic Income has been around for a long time. There has been a dramatic emergence of local pilots of Guaranteed Basic Income programs all across the country in recent years - and huge successes of those programs. The Magnolia Mother's Trust is one of the first, the Stockton SEED [Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration] program - also those two pilot programs really sparked action in every part of our country, including right in Tacoma where there's been a pilot that Mayor Woodards led with United Way of Pierce County. And so we're seeing a lot of success historically and even in the last few years of really the approach of getting cash to people in a way that's not restrictive and that lets people make choices that meet their own needs and the needs of their families and communities. 

The opportunity this year - and what Representative Berry is talking about - is the opportunity to really move that from local pilots to state policy. And she's proposing a statewide pilot that is limited in certain ways in scope, but would be the first state in the country to really have a statewide program for Guaranteed Basic Income. And it's an opportunity to take all of the things that we know from all of the local pilots and the past work on Guaranteed Basic Income and really try it out in a new context of a state program. That bill has gotten a lot of excitement and energy, and hopefully we'll see it get all the way to the finish line this year because it really is, I think, a transformative way to think about the role of state government and a move away from what really are pretty failed paternalistic policies that we've had in the past towards - one, policies that recognize the inherent dignity and the ability of people to make choices for themselves. 

[00:11:52] Crystal Fincher: Another program that is really interesting and that you have talked about is the Baby Bonds savings program. What is that? 

[00:12:01] Misha Werschkul: Okay, so the Baby Bonds program is something that I think is complementary to Guaranteed Basic Income, and also complementary to other approaches like the Working Families Tax Credit and existing public benefits, like TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families] and the Housing and Essential Needs program. So it's important to think about it as a complementary, not a replacement for any of these other programs. But the idea of Baby Bonds is really a concept that was developed by an economist, Darrick Hamilton, to think about how do we really address the issue of wealth disparities - primarily by race - that exists. And we know that little bits of money, changing people's income doesn't actually get to that core issue of how people build wealth over time and how people build wealth intergenerationally. So white folks like me, in a lot of cases, have been able to build wealth in our families that we passed down through generations. And I, for example, was able to go to college because my parents were able to help me pay for the cost of going to college. The idea of Baby Bonds is how could we really give every Washingtonian the opportunity to have that little additional seed investment to be able to invest in themselves and their future. 

And so the State Treasurer, Mike Pellicciotti, has championed this approach for our state. Other states are already moving forward on this, but the idea would be to create an account for every kid who's eligible - to be able to have a little bit of resources that grow over time that they could then use to invest in college, to invest in starting a business, or to invest in buying a home. And really start to move the needle on those intergenerational inequities around wealth. In and of itself, Baby Bonds isn't going to fix everything - it is a piece of the puzzle but is an important one. And it's been exciting to see bipartisan support for that proposal and a lot of energy from local communities to really think about really a proposal that isn't going to have a huge impact in 2024 or 2025, but is setting kids up for success over the long-term and giving people the access to opportunity. 

[00:14:31] Crystal Fincher: So this is an interesting area. So we talked about Guaranteed Basic Income, which is something that definitely has an immediate impact, Baby Bonds savings, which is a long-term impact - both of which are direct cash assistance. And we are so used to, in our society, and hearing pushback on - Well, just giving people cash, are they going to just waste it? How do we know that they're not going to spend it on different things? People are in poverty - as some people say - because they're bad at managing their money, so we can't just hand it over. We need to really prescribe how it can and can't be used. How do you battle that mindset and address those kinds of worries? 

[00:15:15] Misha Werschkul: I think for us at the Budget and Policy Center, it comes back to - what does the research say? And those narratives that exist are just not supported by anything that we see in the research. And so what we've seen is that programs that are out there that give people direct cash - that folks use it in ways that really do meet the needs of themselves and their communities. And I can't remember the number right now, but I feel like there's something like more than 100 local pilots that have operated around Guaranteed Basic Income in the last several years. And so we're not talking about just one example - we are talking about example after example after example. I also think it is actually really important to tackle those narratives a little bit head-on and talk about - where do those narratives come from, and why are they so compelling for some folks? And these ideas of - for example, with regards to the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program and welfare and the dialogues over the years around that program - the kind of myth of the welfare queen - that is a created story that serves a particular purpose. It's not rooted in any sort of reality and we have to actually talk about, we have to actually name those myths that are out there, name those narratives, and call them out for what they are. Because so often it's deeply rooted in racism, deeply rooted in classism and sexism. And to be able to - our hope at the Budget and Policy Center, and other folks play different roles in this, is that by really looking at actually what does the research say and what are the facts on the ground, that that will help to begin to dismantle these narratives that have been built over time. So that's our hope at the Budget and Policy Center - is showing the success of the local pilots, showing what works, and really building some different narratives out there that actually are more rooted in reality. 

[00:17:42] Crystal Fincher: So another thing that you've talked about that is really important is the impact of Legal Financial Obligations on poverty and people's ability to get out of poverty. What are Legal Financial Obligations and what can the Legislature do about it? 

[00:17:57] Misha Werschkul: This is such an important area that hasn't been actually talked about as much when it comes to the upcoming legislative session, so I'm really glad you're asking about it, Crystal. So Legal Financial Obligations are essentially fines and fees that are put on folks based on their interactions with the criminal legal system. And it is one of the primary ways that we actually currently fund our court system. It is probably obvious, as I'm saying this, how inequitable this system is and how ineffective it is, but I'll just elaborate just a little bit. So basically what happens is that folks who are interacting with the criminal legal system - through those interactions - are building up debt over time that oftentimes folks don't have the ability to pay, so that - and there's an expectation that folks will pay those debts in the future. Most of the time, as I said, folks don't have the ability to pay - the money can't be collected. And so really what you have is a situation where folks are shouldering this debt that carries with them after their interaction with the criminal legal system. And the courts don't get the resources that they need to actually fund their operations. So it's a super ineffective way to fund operations - based on trying to collect money from people who, for the most part, really don't have any money to pay those fines and fees. 

Our goal at the Budget and Policy Center, and in coalition with a lot of other organizations, is to really end the practice of Legal Financial Obligations. There are infinite number of better ways to fund our court systems than through the collection of fines and fees. So the goal - the big goal - is to actually end the practice of Legal Financial Obligations as a whole. Not surprisingly, that's not something that's likely to happen in one legislative session. We do have legislative champions who are working towards incremental changes to Legal Financial Obligations, a greater recognition of ability to pay in terms of how fees are assessed and collected - and there we hope to see some progress this legislative session. But in the work around trying to end poverty, people talk about not just the importance of giving people money to be able to afford their basic needs, but actually stopping the practice of wealth taking, which is basically what Legal Financial Obligations are - is another way that any resources that people have are taken from them and that folks are in a system of indebtedness based on an interaction that is already deeply racialized with the criminal legal system. So Representative Tarra Simmons is really leading a lot of that work in the Legislature, groups like Civil Survival and Living with Conviction - want to lift up their work. 

And I also will just, as I'm answering this question, take this opportunity to say I am so appreciative to be able to be here and share this information with you, and I'm also doing that work on behalf of an amazing team of folks at the Budget and Policy Center - so Evan Walker is the person on our team who leads the work on Legal Financial Obligations, Emily Vyhnanek and Tracy Yeung lead the work on direct cash assistance, and other folks are leading other pieces of the work. So I just want to take the opportunity to celebrate their deeper work in each of these areas and how they engage with our coalition partners, even though I'm the one here sharing it with you. 

[00:21:49] Crystal Fincher: And I really appreciate that, and appreciate the work of your entire team - and the work over years that you've been doing - this is not work that you or the Budget and Policy Center is new to. It's really been just a long-term labor, and so really appreciate that. And also just appreciate the importance in you working on issues like Guaranteed Basic Income, Legal Financial Obligations - because we're so used to hearing sometimes in common discourse - things like, If you do the crime, then you do the time. If you don't want something, you should follow the law. Now you got to pay up. And viewing it as we need to hold people accountable and really focusing on a lot of the punitive and punishment aspects of these things, when really we're all losing as a result of those - trying to implement these punitive policies are creating worse outcomes for everyone in every way. When you look at the percentage of our budgets going towards supporting the court systems and jails, clearly fines are not cutting it. And also we say that we want a safe community. We say that we want people to be able to make a mistake, to do their time, fulfill their obligation, and then become a productive member of society - we commonly hear. But we do things that really impair their ability to do that and trap them in cycles of criminalization and poverty - and it just is counterproductive and we wind up paying for it as a community. How do you address people who focus on the punitive aspects - and really wanting to hold people accountable or punish people - and not realizing the other impacts that come from that? 

[00:23:40] Misha Werschkul: I think that's such a big question and I don't know if I have the full answer to it. I will say I was listening to the governor's State of the State address, and he said some things that I really agreed with and then some things that I didn't agree with as much. But one thing he said that I thought was interesting was - he talked about public safety, which we know is a term that means certain things to, and maybe different things, to different people. And he talked about how we actually need to unpack what public safety is and recognize that there's a lot of different aspects of that. And then he actually talked about the work around gun responsibility as an aspect of public safety. And it got me thinking about - just these terms and how they're code, in a lot of ways, for certain things - like public safety is code for policing. And how can we actually really talk about public safety for all of us? And what does it actually look like for all of us to be safe in our communities? And policing - heavy policing - is clearly not providing safety for all of us. In fact, I don't think it's really providing safety for any of us. And if we can think about - what is that aspiration around safety and what does that value for us in our lives and for our families and communities? How do we actually build that together? And a lot of times that does mean a lot of different things - it actually means people having the resources to be able to afford their basic needs so that they can put food on the table, it means that people have shelter - that people are not homeless. It means talking about gun responsibility. And I think a lot of times we fall into, again, these sort of narrative traps of - Oh, yeah, like crime - punish - yeah, if you do the crime, you have to do the time. And sort of believe in a way that that is going to make us safer. And actually I don't know that - it doesn't. 

And so I think just - I don't know, I think we just have to have those conversations in a real way - because, as a white person, a white woman, doing this work, I did believe for a long time that having a police presence was a way that my safety was - was about my safety. But actually, as I unpack that - it's not true, even for me as the model person that the police are here, supposed to protect. And I think we have to just actually talk about that a little bit more and actually have a higher aspiration for safety for all of us, because sometimes it's like walking around certain parts of maybe cities with a heavy police presence might make someone feel - it might make someone feel a little bit safe in the immediate term, but I actually hope for something a lot more. I hope that we can get to a place where - I don't know - safety, just - it's not actually true safety. And so I'm just trying to get at - what is that higher aspiration of safety that we could be striving towards and building towards, and not feeling like our only definition of safety is having armed police officers walking around - to what - shoot someone if something happens? That actually doesn't make me feel super safe - to think about people wielding guns on the streets shooting people to protect me. And so I think that's just something we need to be talking about and grappling with. But I do think - I really appreciated Governor Inslee starting to peel open that conversation a little bit. Now, he then did go on - I want to acknowledge - to talk about the importance, I think he did go on to talk about the importance of investing in policing as well. So he still has that as part of his solution. But I think at least he was starting to unpack - what does public safety look like and maybe open up a different conversation. 

[00:28:34] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, I appreciate your thoughts on that. And unpacking what public safety looks like, unpacking what accountability looks like, and really trying to reduce harm all the way around. We don't want people to be victimized. We don't want people to be trapped in cycles that create and produce harm. What does accountability look like if it's not our court system and jails, which are not doing an effective job. What does public safety look like if it's not only police officers who, I think everyone agrees, can't do the job alone. If not, other models being more successful and effective. The final thing I want to talk about and cover today is what our tax code looks like. It is so foundational to everything in society. It is underneath, it impacts the revenue that we collect that enables every public service to be possible, which public services are possible, and to what degree. There's been lots of talk about how regressive our system has been, how much needs reform. Where do we stand on that? What needs to happen? And what's possible this legislative session? 

[00:29:56] Misha Werschkul: My favorite topic, Crystal - at the Budget and Policy Center, we love talking about taxes. And the reason is because it is super important how we collect revenue as a state and local government. And there are a lot of policy choices embedded in - a lot of values embedded in how we collect revenue. So I think probably most of your listeners know that Washington State has the most inequitable tax code in the country, meaning those with the lowest incomes pay the highest percentage of their income in state and local taxes. And in fact, we're way out of sync with most other states on this. So low income people in Washington State are paying basically double someone with a similar income in Oregon, simply because of the structure of our tax code. This is obviously a pretty bad deal for most Washingtonians. It's a super good deal for the wealthiest Washingtonians who are paying a minute share of their income in state and local taxes. And this is a big problem. This is not something that there's a quick and easy fix for, but there is some really exciting stuff happening. 

So in 2021, the Legislature took two big actions to start to make progress to reform our state tax code. One is they passed a capital gains tax to fund early learning investments in education. The other is they passed a Working Families Tax Credit set up to benefit 420,000 households in Washington State with direct cash sales tax refunds. Both of these policies are happening. So the Working Families Tax Credit launches February 1st. I'm so nerdy excited about this - it's not even funny. But starting very soon, people - 420,000 households - will be able to apply to be able to get a refund check of up to $1,200 in our state. We have been talking about this for so long, it feels like - and the day is finally almost here where this is happening. It is a step in the right direction of balancing our tax code in and of itself. It's not enough. It needs to be expanded. We'll be working this legislative session to try to expand eligibility to younger adults, so folks who are 18-24 and actually older adults as well - 65+ - who aren't currently eligible for the Working Families Tax Credit - to basically bring them in and allow them to be eligible. There's a great website called wataxcredit.org, I think - I hope it's org now - that has a ton of information about this. And I want to just share that out so folks know to spread the word because folks do need to actually proactively apply. One way to think about it is - really anybody who's eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit is going to be eligible for the Washington Working Families Tax Credit too. Plus anyone who files their taxes with an ITIN number who is being excluded right now from the EITC will be eligible for the Working Families Tax Credit. So I'm super excited. It's happening soon. There's going to be action in the Legislature on this, but more importantly, the policy is happening. Folks can get the money if they take the step to apply with Department of Revenue. 

Capital gains tax is being challenged, not surprisingly, by wealthy individuals who would pay the tax. They're trying to get the court to basically intervene and rule that the tax is unconstitutional. The State Supreme Court is hearing that case on January 26th and this is a wonky legal issue that needs to get sorted out before the tax can be fully implemented. And I could go on and on about the legal part of it, but I will stop because you actually asked about also what's happening this legislative session. And I will just pitch the efforts that some of our partners, especially Economic Opportunity Institute and Balance Our Tax Code, are leading with regards to a wealth tax and really thinking about big solutions that make a real difference in making our tax code more equitable. We have to get to the root of it, which is wealth. And so it's exciting to see this proposal coming forward this session that Representative Noel Frame has been a huge leader in. 

[00:35:01] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely and appreciate that. We will include the wataxcredit.org link in our episode notes to make it convenient for people to visit. And also thanks for mentioning your partners - we did have a conversation with Summer Stinson of the Economic Opportunity Institute, and she did talk a lot about that court case and how important it is to have a capital gains tax, what it really means, how few people it actually impacts - it is the wealthiest portion of the wealthy - and we'll see how this court case turns out. I really do appreciate you joining us today. If people want to learn more about the organization, where can they visit? 

[00:35:51] Misha Werschkul: Our website is www.budgetandpolicy.org so you can check us out on the website. We're also on social media - I'll share those links with you for the show notes hopefully. And I also will share - April Dickinson on our team has led the effort just to launch a new podcast called WA Possible that we hope is a great complement to Hacks & Wonks and a bit of a deeper dive into some of what could be possible when it comes to economic justice in Washington state. There's a great episode there talking about the Black Women Best framework that some national partners launched and some of the policies we talked about today, so just would share that as well. 

[00:36:37] Crystal Fincher: Thank you so much, and April Dickinson is awesome. Thank you for all the work. Thank you for joining us today and we'll talk to you all next time. 

[00:36:44] Misha Werschkul: Thank you so much Crystal - appreciate you. 

[00:36:46] Crystal Fincher: Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is co-produced by Shannon Cheng and Bryce Cannatelli. You can follow Hacks & Wonks on Twitter @HacksWonks. You can catch Hacks & Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts - just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, leave a review wherever you listen. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com and in the episode notes. 

Thanks for tuning in - talk to you next time.