Week Without Driving Returns to Spotlight Mobility Issues

Week Without Driving | September 30 - October 6, 2024

Week Without Driving Events Planned Across Washington State as the Challenge Continues to Grow Nationally | Disability Rights Washington

Week Without Driving 2024 Resources and Social Media Toolkit

Week Without Driving | America Walks

“Disability advocates challenge Vancouver’s elected leaders to go a week without driving” by Chrissy Booker from The Columbian

“What a Week Without Driving Can Teach” by Anna Zivarts for Bloomberg

[00:00:00] Crystal Fincher: Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday week-in-review show and our Tuesday topical show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes.

I am thrilled to be welcoming Ruth Rosas. Ruth is a Program Manager at America Walks, a national organization dedicated to increasing the visibility and demand for public places that enable all people to move and walk freely. And Cecelia Black, who is a wheelchair user and community organizer for Disability Mobility Initiative at Disability Rights Washington, and serves on the board for Be:Seattle. Thank you both for joining us today.

[00:01:25] Ruth Rosas: Thanks - it's great to be here.

[00:01:28] Crystal Fincher: We are here to talk about the Week Without Driving - which has become a very big deal, has seen a lot of participation. So just starting off - Ruth, what is the Week Without Driving?

[00:01:42] Ruth Rosas: The Week Without Driving is a week-long nationwide annual event - it's usually held the first week of October. This year, it's from September 30th through October 6th. And it's a time where we challenge anyone - individuals, advocates, organizations, businesses, elected officials, people who work in transportation and others, professionals - to actually go a week, a full week, without driving at all. So they are able to use the bus, or trains, or bike, or walk, or roll in how ever way they see it - they can also carpool, but they just can't drive themselves. And so it's a time to really reflect on the fact that almost a third of Americans cannot drive. And so we really want them to, during this time, think about - What if I couldn't drive? What if I had to actually rely on other modes of transportation during this whole week? So the goal of this is that reflection piece. And that is why we are hosting it every year and trying to encourage people, especially elected officials, to participate.

[00:02:58] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. Now, Cecelia, this has certainly grown and gained a lot of momentum over the past several years. How have you seen this develop and what kind of participation are you hoping for this year?

[00:03:11] Cecelia Black: Week Without Driving started in Washington State at Disability Rights Washington with the Disability Mobility Initiative in 2021. And it really came at the same time as Disability Mobility Initiative was doing interviews with disabled non-drivers across the state - we interviewed over 200 people and we had disabled non-drivers represent every single legislative district. And from that, we learned that across the state - whether you're in rural or urban, suburban areas - that people with disabilities had the same transportation barriers. They manifested differently, but across the state, people with disabilities face some of the biggest barriers to transportation. And that has huge impacts on where they work, how they work, what basic services they have access to, and just what social activities they can participate in. And so alongside that challenge, Week Without Driving started recognizing that most of our elected leaders do drive and most of them don't truly understand what it actually feels like to rely on transit or sidewalks - to rely on anything except your car solely. And there's basic things that we understand about our transportation system - like we understand that we need buses, we need more frequent routes, we need better transportation funding - but there's so many pieces in between that's really hard to conceptualize unless it's really impacting you. And so this challenge was really to ask elected leaders to give up their car and really see what it's like to walk to a bus stop without a sidewalk. Or sit at a bus stop that runs once an hour without a bus shelter. Or maybe there's no buses in your service area where you live. And also there might be activities you just have to give up - how many community meetings do you have in your district that are in polar opposite sides of your city, that you just can't get to in time when you're relying on transit? And so this really pushes our elected leaders to really think about how we are and are not designing our communities for non-drivers and hope that throughout the year, as they're making these huge decisions that impact all of us, they can be reminded of their experiences during Week Without Driving. It's a challenge that's grown since 2021 - obviously, it's national with America Walks leading a national coalition in 2023 last year. And now in its fourth year, people are starting to recognize and become familiar with it - and so it's really creating an opportunity where we can have conversations with our elected leaders.

[00:05:33] Crystal Fincher: They are. And what you talk about, just how much is in between the - Yeah, we need car service and bus service - how much in the mobility puzzle in public policy is missing, is inadequate. And how many people in the community it impacts, which I think people regularly underestimate. When it comes to people being left out of a conversation, if we are not including non-drivers - how many people is that and who is that in our communities, Ruth?

[00:06:04] Ruth Rosas: So about a third of Americans can't drive. And when we talk about non-drivers, specifically for Week Without Driving, we are talking about involuntary non-drivers. And so, involuntary non-drivers are those who are not choosing to not drive, but they are actually unable to drive. And so those non-drivers tend to represent, like what Cecelia said, a lot of people with disabilities. Also, people who cannot afford to drive, people who have aged out of driving - there's a study that was done that says that people will outlive their driving age by 7 to 10 years, which is quite a bit, so that brings up the questions of aging in place. Also, children and young people - we always talk about them because children, young people are mandated to go somewhere. They actually have to go to school, right - if they're not homeschooled - that's a law. And they actually have to use the transportation system to get there. And many children don't have that opportunity to get driven by parents - and so they have to rely on other forms of transportation, so we have to take their needs into account as well. We also talk about other non-drivers who tend to be immigrants or refugees, people who just got here. A lot of tourists and travelers - if you visit a place, you probably don't have a car there. And many times if you want to visit a city, you don't really want to rent a car either - so that also, you become a non-driver. And so when we are thinking about this during the Week, we are really focusing on the fact that you're not choosing. We're reflecting on those people who cannot choose whether they are driving or not - they just cannot. And the other part of the conversation, or other non-drivers, are choice non-drivers. So these are people who maybe live in dense areas - or maybe they have decided to give up their car for other reasons, environmental reasons, etc - and so they're choosing to live that lifestyle of not driving. But that's a very different thing because we know that you can offset your costs because you live in a walkable area or a dense area - maybe your rent is quite high, but you can afford it, or you can afford to have delivered groceries or anything that you may need. But when we talk about involuntary non-drivers, we're specifically focusing on people who may not have all those options and may not be able to afford all those things. And so what choices do they have? And so that is what we're talking about during Week Without Driving. But we know that there's a lot of people who represent that and we just want people to know that it's a third of the population of people who live around us.

[00:08:49] Crystal Fincher: Question to both of you, but we'll start with Cecelia - what have been the most common experiences, or representative experiences, you've heard from people who have participated in the Week Without Driving before?

[00:09:00] Cecelia Black: A couple of things - we hear a lot of people, especially elected leaders, talk about how they just didn't realize all the small pieces that connect transit together, like how important those were. At least in Seattle, the sidewalk conversation's changing and we can't attribute everything to Week Without Driving - there's so many things that are happening in the space and our conversations - but we're talking about sidewalks completely different than we were talking about sidewalks four years ago. And I think part of that is people really taking the time to really understand - what are all of those connected pieces to get to transit and the bus shelters. And I think another thing that we hear a lot, especially again from electeds, is just how they cannot do all those things that they need to get done in a day without a car. And I think this really hits home just how important alternatives to driving is. And also really underscores why there are so many people who are not represented - and there's a lot of reasons - but represented in our elected leadership, just because it is so difficult to access all of the meetings, all of the community events that you need to be at to have your voices heard if you are not rolling in a car.

[00:10:06] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. Ruth, what have you heard?

[00:10:09] Ruth Rosas: So last year was my first year participating and being part of organizing this with Disability Mobility Initiative, and I was really excited to see what people's experience was like. We were able to hear from some elected officials because they either wrote something about their experience - shared it on social media. We also did a survey where we asked them to share some of their experiences. And I think, like what Cecelia said, we had a lot of people who were - especially elected leaders - who were shocked at how long things took. They didn't realize that 30 minutes between each bus is actually not enough. Because if you miss one bus, then you're going to have to wait so long that you're probably going to be either late or not going to be able to go at all. And so, to me, as a person who has been a non-driver - not by choice, but we definitely thought about those things - that there's people out there that just live a different reality. And so I think those were the experiences that, to me, really stood out.

[00:11:12] Crystal Fincher: So that certainly has been enlightening for a lot of people. You made mention earlier of non-drivers being impacted in urban areas, suburban areas, and rural areas - all experiencing impacts, but they may experience them in different ways. What are some of the ways in which you hear that are common for urban areas versus suburban versus rural for people during this Week? Cecelia?

[00:11:39] Cecelia Black: I will say, urban areas - and it depends on where you live within an urban area - just has better transportation options. And just want to be clear about that - I'm so lucky, I live right next to Roosevelt Light Rail Station in Seattle. There's like three main bus routes right outside my apartment building, I live next to a grocery store. And I think as you move out to the suburban and rural areas, there are just not as many transportation options - and so that just is a huge reality if you're not living in a city. I think some things that are the same and also different is sidewalks - sidewalks are a huge issue everywhere. In rural areas and suburban areas, especially as people are being pushed out of cities more and more and being priced out of cities, these big local highways or freeways that we don't expect to see people walking on - because we think about them as just developed for roads. But when we're going through a rural and sometimes suburban area, those are the local streets that people have to walk on. And because they were designed to not have people there, they're not made for pedestrians - but those are the local streets. And so the reality of sidewalks, without having sidewalks or bike lanes or crosswalks, has a lot more serious ramifications in some of these huge streets in rural and suburban areas that are not always felt in urban areas.

[00:12:55] Crystal Fincher: And Ruth?

[00:12:56] Ruth Rosas: I have the experience of living in both places - a very urban area and then a very rural area. Where I grew up, there was no public transit. So I definitely remember the impact of not having that on my family and how hard it was to actually deal with that - because we had to get to school and that was really challenging. And so I definitely think that in rural areas, it's much harder to live without a car, as we would expect, because it's not as dense - things are further apart. I also think there's a stigma of not having a car. And this goes beyond rural areas - it's also in suburban and urban areas - where, I think, many times people see driving as a rite of passage into adulthood. And so if you drive, then you're an adult now and that's responsibility. And we don't often talk about the fact that there are people who will never drive in their lives because they can't - and they also have transportation needs, they also have to get to places. And so when I was young, I remember walking to school and feeling ashamed that I had to walk a mile because not a lot of other students did. And so, I see it now as an adult and kind of how that carries throughout what people assume of you or think about you. And then, I think, in suburban areas - my mom lives in a very suburban area now. And so when I go to her house to visit and things, it's really hard for me to get from Chicago to the suburbs. Sometimes I bike it. Sometimes I try to take the train part of the way. Sometimes I take the bus and it's exponentially much of a longer trip than it is on a car - it's 20 minutes from Chicago to where she lives on a car. But if I take public transit only, it is up to an hour or an hour and a half. If I bike part of the way, then maybe it's an hour. And so we often talk about that time as well and the fact that time is a big component of Week Without Driving and not being able to drive. That when you don't drive, your transportation options become limited, but so does your day. Your day becomes limited because you're moving from one place to another, and it takes so much longer.

[00:15:10] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, I know. Certainly, looking at transit in certain areas - my late father was blind in most of his later life. And the area that he wound up moving to just wasn't served by transit at all - I think the nearest transit stop was about three miles away in Puyallup at the time and was a challenge. And what I've seen is there's a lot of people who assume that there are just services there for people who can't drive and really need to get somewhere. Don't they have the dial-a-ride thing? And don't they have this? And don't they have that? - and that's as much as people ever think about it. And the reality in practice is - no, that's not a thing. Or no, it's not a thing without several days notice. And even then, it may not come on time either - and so that's a challenge. And so just really walking through the process with people - I've seen it open a lot of people's eyes to just how many holes there are in the system that we expect to work for people who need it to work to be able to live their lives. Now, what specific events are planned for this year's Week Without Driving in the Puget Sound area, Cecelia?

[00:16:29] Cecelia Black: I just want to say real quick that I think that also a lot of people assume that there aren't many non-drivers in their area as well. I was talking to an elected leader last year - we were talking about Week Without Driving in their rural area, and he was talking about how people just have cars. And then in real-time, he began talking about his mom who no longer drives and then was talking about the sidewalks around his mom's house. And so I think that we also just forget about how many non-drivers exist in our own networks.

In Puget Sound in Washington state, we have a few events that are pretty exciting. Disability Rights Washington - we worked with disabled transit advocates in their communities, and so we're really supporting what local transportation advocates are doing. So on Monday, I got to meet Abby Griffith, who's blind and helped launch Week Without Driving in 2021 in Vancouver. And we tried to take the bus - we tried to get from the Amtrak station in Vancouver to City Hall where there was a Week Without Driving proclamation - and that was challenging. And then coming up, we have an event in Pasco in the Tri-Cities. And there's going to be a panel of a elected leader, transit board member, union leader - and Jaime Torres, who is a non-driver himself, is organizing that event - and it will be at a local cafe. In Seattle, we have a walk along Rainier - a walk audit, really - so we can together think about all of the different developments that are going into Rainier and also the new light rail and where the light rail is at. For those of you who aren't familiar with Rainier Avenue or the new light rail - which is the Judkins Park Station - it is aside, and under, next to I-90 on-ramps and off-ramps. And it is not a comfortable place to walk, and that is where a lot of new development is going. So we're going to - on October 1st, we'll be doing our Rainier walk audit at 4:30pm - and that's going to be an event where we can really talk about all the issues that connect to transportation. And then on October 3rd, also in Seattle, we are doing an elevator audit. And so we are meeting at the Pier [50] at the Waterfront. I didn't realize this until recently - I was so excited - both King County Metro and Seattle Department of Transportation has maps showing elevators that you can use to jump the hills. And they haven't been updated recently, but it's cool that they have them. And so we're going to use those maps and see if we can get from the Waterfront up to 4th Avenue without actually hopefully having to climb a hill. And so that's on Thursday, October 3rd at 2pm. And then we also have counties issuing Week Without Driving proclamations - so in Pierce County, Pierce County Council will be issuing a Week Without Driving proclamation on October 1st.

[00:19:05] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. I think I also saw that on October 2nd, there's going to be a webinar and screening with Real Change News at 1pm. We will put a link to all of that in the show notes, on the website, and on the podcast. So for more information, definitely tune into the show notes - so thank you for that. How can listeners get involved with the Week Without Driving? If you're just someone listening who happens to see this information - how can they get involved, Ruth?

[00:19:36] Ruth Rosas: There's a lot of organizations across the country that are hosting events as well. Or they are giving individuals, advocates, people who want to get involved resources about transportation options in their area. So if you are a person who is interested in learning more and seeing how you can get involved, you can visit WeekWithoutDriving.org/join and you will get some information - if there are people in your area who are hosting anything, and we will also send out newsletters about specific events going on in different places. So sign up and you'll get information about that. And hopefully you'll be able to connect with others as well who are participating in the challenge or maybe also are non-drivers in your community.

[00:20:26] Crystal Fincher: Have you seen people getting involved who aren't elected officials, who aren't policymakers in the Puget Sound area, Cecelia?

[00:20:35] Cecelia Black: Yeah, we have a lot of co-sponsors in Washington state, and it's pretty overwhelming just to look at how many organizations are just signing up and sponsoring and encouraging everybody in there networks to take the challenge. I also want to say that sharing your reflections on social media is pretty important and can be a pretty powerful way to share Week Without Driving and participate in Week Without Driving. And Ruth has put together some great social media toolkits to really show people easy ways to start talking about Week Without Driving. And that's definitely a component of Week Without Driving that I think people might overlook, but it is pretty exciting and pretty powerful just to see all of the things that people are doing and learning throughout the Week.

[00:21:15] Crystal Fincher: I certainly have learned from people on social media. What have people found useful in those toolkits, Ruth?

[00:21:22] Ruth Rosas: So we'll be putting out a TikTok reel of like the ways that you can share your Week Without Driving. We do use the hashtag #WeekWithoutDriving - the W's are capital and so is the D - so that is a quick way to see what other people are sharing. But we do want them to share what their experience was on any given day. We also have on there - if you want to contact maybe local media in your community and let them know about this, or maybe you want to write an op-ed - we have a toolkit that explains ways that you can do that. And we also have just some basic information that you can work off of if you're posting something - maybe you're writing a blog about it, or like I said, if you're writing an op-ed or want to submit something to a local news station - we have information on there and talking points that can help guide you. And we also have graphics, so you can use some of our graphics or edit them as you want. So we kind of provide all of that - we're very, an open source kind of coalition - and so we have a lot of resources for people to use to be able to carry out the message.

[00:22:34] Cecelia Black: I just want to add and emphasize that another huge piece of Week Without Driving is inviting your elected leaders to participate. And there's also - on the website - templates for how to ask your elected leaders to take this challenge with you.

[00:22:48] Crystal Fincher: What is the best way to ask an elected leader? Someone's in some city, they're in a suburb, and they're like - I've been going through challenges, I really would like the people passing policy to understand what it's like on the ground. What is the best way to ask, Ruth?

[00:23:04] Ruth Rosas: Like Cecelia said, we have templates where you can write letters. You can also set up appointments to meet with your elected official - often we see this as a way to actually start building those relationships with your elected officials. Maybe you've never met with them before, maybe you want to get to know them or hear about their positions on funding or policy around transportation - and so it's a good way to reach out. The templates do provide a very easy way to ask them, but you are able to insert perhaps your needs or specific areas that you know may need some updates or infrastructure for pedestrians. So the letter is a way to initially contact them. We have seen people use the Week Without Driving as a way to host an event and then invite an elected official. So some people have asked them to participate in a walk audit or a panel, especially in areas where maybe there's not a lot of transit and the elected official is going to be maybe a little bit more hesitant to participate because their options for getting around are a lot more limited. We have organizations who have thought of those different things. But I do think that if you write an email - reach out to see, follow up with them, maybe you'll give them a call and try to find out. It's a good way to start that conversation to just see where they're at - maybe you'll find out more things about what they're actually working on and start to build that relationship where you can bring the issues that you may have to the forefront. So it's a good time to do that.

[00:24:46] Crystal Fincher: Now, Cecelia, can you discuss how the challenge intersects with issues of disability rights and accessibility?

[00:24:54] Cecelia Black: Yeah, I used to live in Chicago - where there's a lot of disability organizing - and I moved to Washington state and really couldn't find that same community. And I started reading about Anna Zivarts - who is my boss, who started Week Without Driving - in newspapers. And it was the first time that I saw people with disabilities getting cited as transportation experts - not just experts on one niche disability issue, but actually in multiple media. And that was - I just can't even tell you how powerful that was. But also, I think that what Week Without Driving does is so often our needs as people with disabilities is seen as just other, just inherently different - another program, another cost that's not necessarily going to benefit everybody, that's not something that everyone needs. And there are definitely some needs that are different than everyone else, but we're talking about transportation issues and people with disabilities are four times more likely to not drive than people without disabilities. But also that these issues are just community issues. We know that people with disabilities are not the only non-drivers, but we also know that everyone benefits when there's sidewalks, and when there's transit, and when we have healthier, safer modes of transportation. And so I think what is so powerful about this challenge is really amplifying the needs of people with disabilities and at the same time connecting it to other movements that are fighting for the same things. And just want to underscore just how big of an impact our transportation system has on people with disabilities. In Seattle, a quarter of our streets don't have sidewalks. And then about half of our existing sidewalks are broken and impact mobility, which means that 61% of our streets are not actually fully accessible for people with disabilities - and those are sidewalks everybody uses. But when a sidewalk is broken - if you're in a wheelchair or use a white cane or a walker, you can't just step over a crack. You either have to retrace your steps, you have to go into the street where it's inherently more unsafe - and so we just get put at a lot more risk when we're using our transportation system. And when we don't always have the option of driving, it just has bigger impacts in terms of what we can access.

[00:27:03] Crystal Fincher: And Ruth, how does the Week Without Driving relate to the broader goals of creating more walkable and bikeable communities?

[00:27:11] Ruth Rosas: Yeah, a lot of organizations that work on other causes have joined on to Week Without Driving because they see it as a chance to actually talk about some of these issues that, like Cecelia said, affect all of us. And so, for example, a lot of transit organizations, transit agencies themselves have seen this as an opportunity to talk about some of these issues in their own communities and bring to the forefront the fact that transit is really necessary if we want to provide people with transportation options that are not driving. And so we've seen different organizations and advocates use this as a way to talk about the issues - not just the issues that, like Cecelia said, that maybe seem niche to some people, but actually affect everybody. So it does provide a platform to bring those issues up and ideas and have that conversation with an elected leader. But I also think it's a good time for reflection for ourselves - even as people who may be able to drive sometimes, or maybe you are a non-driver already for various reasons - it is a good time to raise up your voice and talk about the issues in your own community and the issues that you see when you're trying to get around. We've noticed that elected officials really do want to hear from their constituents about the issues that they're facing. And so this is a good time to bring those stories out and really talk to an elected official about perhaps an intersection that may be an issue or, like Cecelia said, a lot of broken sidewalks. And so, we hope that this is a chance for people to connect around all of these transportation issues that we're having across the country.

[00:29:02] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. So as we move to close this conversation, what would you give to people, especially elected leaders, who are like - Oh, this is one more thing to add to my list. It's busy. It's hard to get around without transit and that's going to be a challenge - about why they should participate and why it's so important to their community. Ruth?

[00:29:29] Ruth Rosas: So one of the things that we always hear from people is - Everybody drives here. Oh, nobody - nobody walks or nobody bikes here because it's too dangerous. And so one thing that we really want to talk about is the fact that because there are all of these non-drivers in our communities - maybe it's an issue that's not affecting you, but it's probably an issue that's affecting somebody you know and love. And even if you think it won't affect you - when we think about aging and aging in place, and should older people have the ability to age where they want to, the topic of transportation inevitably comes up because how are they going to be able to get to their medical appointments, to get groceries, etc. And so I think it is a good time for that reflection piece. And we want to encourage elected officials to participate because they are the ones that are making the decisions about policy and funding - and it's a good time to get informed, right? It's not just about driving in our communities because so many other people have to use other modes of transportation. So it's a good time to actually learn about those things and make better, well-informed decisions about the ways we build and plan and design our transportation system. And we do think that other transportation modes are going to grow, simply because of environmental reasons and other reasons. So we just want elected officials to be well aware of these things that are happening in their community, or something that eventually they may face or somebody that they love may face. We heard from an elected leader whose child developed epilepsy and was unable to drive after that - and so that kind of issue or life experience does happen to people. And so we want to make sure that everybody - people who have different life experiences than us - actually do have those transportation options. So it's a good time to get really well informed about those things.

[00:31:39] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. And Cecelia?

[00:31:43] Cecelia Black: Yeah, our understanding of the world and of policies is shaped so much by our own experiences and the people that we know experiences. And so when elected leaders don't have those experiences, they really can't fully understand the whole transportation or zoning piece. And so this Week Without Driving is so important because it really gives leaders a lens under which they can understand these huge pieces of our government and of our policies - how they actually work. And without really understanding how public transit and how housing and land use and transportation works together, we just can't make good policies. The other thing I just wanted to say is we want to make sure people know that Week Without Driving is not a competition. It's not like - Oh, I did all seven days, I won the Week Without Driving challenge. And we know that non-drivers have to give up things all the time - and for some people, that's just not an option to do that through Week Without Driving. And so we really want to drive home that you can participate in Week Without Driving even if it's not the whole week - try to do a day. And if you do have to drive, what we really ask is that you sit down and you map out what you actually would have done if you didn't have a car. And really think about it, and think about - is this a meeting or is this an activity you would have had to cancel, or would you have to rely on friends taking you? And so it's such an important challenge. And also, we hope everyone participates for the whole week - but if that's not possible, there are so many ways that you can meaningfully engage in this conversation.

[00:33:12] Crystal Fincher: Well, Ruth Rosas, Cecelia Black - thank you so much for joining us and talking about the Week Without Driving. Thank you.

[00:33:20] Ruth Rosas: Thank you.

[00:33:21] Cecelia Black: Thanks for having us.

[00:33:23] Crystal Fincher: Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is produced by Shannon Cheng. You can follow Hacks & Wonks on Twitter @HacksWonks. You can catch Hacks & Wonks on every podcast service and app - just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to get the full versions of our Friday week-in-review shows and our Tuesday topical show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, leave a review wherever you listen. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com and in the podcast episode notes.

Thanks for tuning in - talk to you next time.